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Guns or no guns?

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Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 02:23:41 pm CDT

The Lincoln City Council's decision to drop a proposed ban against people carrying concealed handguns in the city  now leaves the weapon decision up to individual business owners.

BY NANCY HICKS | Lincoln Journal Star

Brian Kitten,  co-owner of Brewsky's, doesn’t think alcohol and guns mix -- so he’ll be putting up signs that say concealed weapons aren't allowed in his establishments when the state’s new conceal-carry law goes into effect next year.

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Kitten

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7.24.06: Council rejects concealed handgun ban

“As far as a business with alcohol, it just doesn't make sense to allow guns,”  said Kitten, who added he doesn’t want to deal with an upset customer and wonder if he is carrying a gun.

The City Council's decision on Monday to drop a proposed ban against carrying concealed handguns in the city now leaves the decision up to individual business owners.

The new state law allowing concealed weapons, which goes into effect Jan. 1, allows property owners to ban concealed handguns from their property. But owners must post a “conspicuous sign” letting the public know the rule. 

There’s likely to be “No Gun” signs at Pershing Auditorium and at Lancaster Manor -- in fact, at every county and city building in Lincoln. 

The city law office has already drafted a city ordinance that will ban all weapons at all buildings owned or leased by the city or county.

The new state law prohibits guns in some specific public buildings, including any building with a court and at any City Council or county board meeting.  

However, that doesn’t cover most government-owned buildings, including the city and county offices in the building next to the courts.

The proposed city ordinance would ban weapons from all local government  buildings, City Attorney Dana Roper said. The ordinance would ban all weapons, including knives with blades longer than 3 1/2 inches -- whether they are concealed or not.

The ordinance would also provide for a criminal penalty of up to a $500 fine or six months in jail.

The County-City Building Commission recommended banning weapons in the buildings, Roper said. 

Most businesses, meanwhile, probably have not thought about what they want to do, said Wendy Birdsall, interim president of the Lincoln Chamber of Commerce. 

Dale Nordyke, owner of The Mill coffee shop at Eighth and P streets, said he disagreed with the council decision. But he probably won’t be posting “No Weapons” signs at The Mill. Nordyke doesn’t think he will have many customers carrying a concealed gun.   

He does find it ironic, though, that the City Council would allow people to carry concealed weapons in Lincoln, then consider banning weapons from government-owned buildings.

“They want to protect themselves, but not anyone else,” he said. 

Reach Nancy Hicks at 473-7250 or nhicks@journalstar.com.

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A business owner can disallow concealed handguns from the business by posting signs. The proposed rules, developed by the Nebraska State Patrol, suggest that this sign contain a four-inch circle with a slash over a handgun and test saying that carrying a concealed handgun anywhere on the premises is prohibited.  

An employer may also prohibit employees or anyone from carrying concealed handguns in business-owned vehicles.


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jimmy wrote on July 26, 2006 2:08 am:
" i see "no guns" signs as a temporary situation. they will pop up in businesses that are looking to take a stand, but they will eventually cave. i would prefer that in follks visiting my house didn't feel the need to pack heat and i'd do my darndest to reassure them that it wasn't necessary to do so by banning guns. but i suppose i would eventually realize that it makes no difference whatsoever, provided i can maintain an orderly house, whether people are carrying grenades or a nail clippers in their pocket for whatever reasons. "

 c.h. wrote on July 26, 2006 5:51 am:
" I travel extensively in other states. Almost all of them I go to except, I think, Kansas and Wisconsin, allow concealed weapons, and have for a long time. In 35 years I've only seen one sign prohibiting guns, and that was on a church in Texas. I think it's fine for a business owner to prohibit guns in his own business if he wants, but I doubt it's necessary. I think all the publicity surrounding Lincoln's proposed ban has brought this all to the fore. When it all started, my cousin (who is a school teacher) said to me, "I've carried a gun in my purse since college. My dad gave it to me. You mean to tell me that all this time it's been ILLEGAL?" So see, the guns have already been here, the difference is, now we KNOW it. "

 Taking My Business Elsewhere wrote on July 26, 2006 6:45 am:
" I love the idea of giving out a business card explaining why I am taking my business someplace else when I see these signs. Even if I don't get a permit, I will make sure they know why I am going to trade with a merchant who respects me. I guarantee it will not be a permit holder that comes in with a concealed gun and rips you off. Your sign will only alienate those of us who obey the law and realize that we are not welcome or trusted by you anymore. A "No Guns" sign will mean you don't need my business, and I know a lot of folks who believe the same way I do. "

 Sign Up wrote on July 26, 2006 7:31 am:
" I'll have to protect my family from people coming onto my property with that sign. That isn't a big burden but it is one now imposed. There seems to be a bizaare obligation now that requires postings if you do not believe guns are reedy to protecting your property. Now I have to suspect any irrate customer could pull out a gun and open fire on me or customers...that will probably raise my insurance rates too ...if a sign isn't posted. The nation had experienced an occupation when the Constitution was written and British soldiers had taken excessive measures...Might neighborhoods post signs to cover ban concealed guns on their sidewalks and streets? "

 Puzzled wrote on July 26, 2006 7:53 am:
" I'm puzzled as to why the story even mentions Brewsky's, a bar, when LB454 specifically states that CCW will *still* be prohibited in establishments are licensed by the State Liquor Board and derive over half their income from the sale of alcoholic beverages. I think anyone even vaguely familiar with Brewsky's would say that far more than half their revenues come from alcohol sales. It implies that Brewsky's could elect to allow CCW on the premises, which is not true. "

 Sarah S. wrote on July 26, 2006 8:06 am:
" I have no problem with business owners exercising their right to refuse or offer service to anyone they want. Strange that that they aren't afforded this right when it comes to smoking. You see, Totalitarian Lincoln, private property rights are much more important than gun concealment rights, though I certainly support both. "

 Jason wrote on July 26, 2006 8:15 am:
" This is the same type of comments that I heard when the smoking ban took effect. "If I see a sign I'll take my business elsewhere" and the like, but the simple fact is we live in a society dominated by fear. We always have and we always will. Fire arm deaths are higher in this country per capita than any other developed country in the world period. I will now only go into bars that have a no guns sign. Every time I go out on the weekends I see fights for no reason at all and it doesn't matter which bar I go to. I don't want to worry about being an innocent bystander so I'll avoid those bars like the plaque. I know innocent people will get shot and might even die, but if it takes a few broken eggs for you to realize the error of your ways in allowing concealed weapons then so be it. Even if it's me. "

 My Business wrote on July 26, 2006 8:18 am:
" Well, my business will go to those merchants who post a "no guns" sign. Concealed weapons are most dangerous to those who carry them and I don't want to be around those people any more than I have to. The city council (mostly Jon Camp) disrespected the citzens of Lincoln by hijacking the process and eliminating the scheduled public hearing. I for one will remember come the mayoral election. "

 Scott wrote on July 26, 2006 8:25 am:
" Many people like myself will tell businesses that we appreciate the fact that they are banning guns and will do our business with them because of it. There are far more people who care about overall public safety rather than having to contend with someone who feels the need to carry a gun because he/she's paranoid and thinks the whole worlds out to shoot him/her down. Why is it that so many people in Nebraska live in fear and believe everyone and everything is out to get them??? In reality compared to most places we have little to fear when it comes to major crime... "

 chris wrote on July 26, 2006 8:32 am:
" I'm not an alarmist, but are you ready to say, in these uncertain times, that America will never again face an occupied situation? I'm not. An occupying force here wouldn't find the sitting ducks they might in other countries and that gives us a certain measure of security! "

 Another Jason wrote on July 26, 2006 8:55 am:
" When was the last time you heard on any news, national or local, of a concealed weapon, permit holding, person shooting someone? When was the last time you heard of a criminal shooting someone? I think your fears are misplaced. "

 RA wrote on July 26, 2006 8:57 am:
" how nice the goverment offices will protect themselves but not the public thats politics for you. At least Mayor Coleen tried to help the public just to bad there are others on the city council that dont care of we end up with the the crime problems like Omaha. They will answer someday for the poor decisions they make how can they sleep at night or look in the mirror is beyond me "

 Other Paying Customer wrote on July 26, 2006 8:59 am:
" Great, take your business elsewhere, I wouldn't want to be at the same place as you anyway. I'll gladly go to places WITH the "No Guns" signs and give them my business verses those without. "

 andy wrote on July 26, 2006 9:22 am:
" too all you business owners who put up a no guns sign are you going to provide an armed guard to protect your employees and customers from robbers? Of course they will target you because of the sign. And the police won't be there to save you. You will be moraly responsible for injuries, death, and trauma caused because you are "afraid" of citizens with guns. I see a no gun sign, I say no sale. Oh, I WILL carry in your store if I must go in. Try and stop me. "

 Its interesting wrote on July 26, 2006 9:23 am:
" that so many here equate concealed weapons only with impetuous, ill-mannered, and hot-tempered individuals, rather than upstanding fellow citizens. Comments such as "any irrate customer could pull out a gun and open fire on me or customers" make me wonder, what did you do yesterday? Were there no ill-mannered thugs with guns before the concealed carry law passed? Do you actually believe that a sign, which will stop the law-abiding carriers from entering your business, will really stop those thugs at the door? "

 It is Ironic wrote on July 26, 2006 9:24 am:
" A concealed weapon is ok everywhere except in the city and county buildings, where those council members work, well at least they are protecting themselves!! "

 Ed wrote on July 26, 2006 9:27 am:
" I am still trying to figure why anyone would WANT to carry a concealed weapon within the city limits of Lincoln. Just because it is allowed doesn't mean it's necessary. "

 Troy wrote on July 26, 2006 9:34 am:
" First off, bar owners, concealed weapons will not be allowed in your business anyway. Actually read the law before you fire off half-cocked. Do not target us because you are not intelligent enough to actually learn the law. But the major problem will be that when the first crime committed with a weapon in the new year newspaper and television headlines will be "Man killed with a Concealed Handgun" and you will have to read six paragraphs into the story to find out that the assailant wasn't licensed or registered. But all you anti-gun thugs will wave it around like a battleflag. "

 connie wrote on July 26, 2006 9:52 am:
" I'm like c.h. I know a lot of people (women, mostly) who have always carried guns, and had no idea 'til now, that they weren't supposed to! I suppose since it's legal almost everywhere, it never occurred to them that it wasn't here. This whole thing really is a tempest-in-a-teapot. What do people imagine will happen in Nebraska, if nothing bad has happened anyplace else? Do they think we're more stupid or violent than people in other states? "

 Ed wrote on July 26, 2006 9:53 am:
" I am still trying to figure why anyone would WANT to carry a concealed weapon within the city limits of Lincoln. Just because it is allowed doesn't mean it's necessary. "

 aj wrote on July 26, 2006 10:02 am:
" In all likelihood the first person killed with a registered concealed weapon will be the gun owner himself either by accident or because his assailant will take it from him and use it. "

 Husker4Ban wrote on July 26, 2006 10:13 am:
" Don't count chickens before they are hatched...Don't give up on the Huskers before they've played the game...the council only delayed and stood in the way of a public hearing; the ban is a valid proposal, the law still gives them the duty to listen to citizens and act accordingly. "

 Gary B wrote on July 26, 2006 10:17 am:
" I find it hilarious that Brian Kitten, the same guy who fought so hard against the smoking ban, has no problem with people spewing known carcinogens and deadly chemicals into the air, but is dead-set against handguns. The letter of the CCW law makes this a moot point, as no concealed weapons are to be allowed in establishments that garner greater than 50% of their income from alcohol. Still, if he's truly concerned about his customer's safety, he should take a look at the facts. The in 2001, the U.S. recorded a total of about 30,000 firearm deaths, over 50% of which came from suicides. Conversely, about 400,000 people die annually from smoking. So what gives, Brian? Do you really care about customer safety, or the thickness of your pocketbook? "

 Jay wrote on July 26, 2006 10:21 am:
" Wait a minute. Alcohol does not mix well with a lot of things. Let's see. Alcohol and driving, Alcohol and knives, Alcohol and Sex, Alcohol and swimming. Should I keep going. Everyone wants to bring up alcohol and guns, which is fine, I agree. But don't forget that guns are not the ONLY thing alcohol does not mix with. Keep the facts straight and stop trying to skew reality people. "

 Jed wrote on July 26, 2006 11:15 am:
" More useless laws being passed by the city. Now it's no knives longer than 3 1/2 inches whether they are concealed or not? Isn't it state law that you can only carry a knive that has a blade of 3 1/2 inches or less anyways? And on the topic of Brewsky's, the owner is within his full rights to say no to guns. But to say that he doesn't want to deal with an angry customer and wonder if he has a gun, is just insulting to me personally as a gun owner. And regardless, being a bar guns are banned anyways. But what on earth makes you think permit holders are going to fly off the handle because we have a gun? Do you not realise we will have been found to not be convicted of ANY crime of violence.. that means simple assault too. The law is made that way, to keep violent people from having a permit. I understand your concerns over alcohol and guns not mixing, that couldn't be more true. But don't insult us to get your point across. It only encourages other businesses to insult us the same way. How about give people a chance to see how they act then decide on whether to say no to it or not. "

 malkore wrote on July 26, 2006 11:21 am:
" Well, here's a bar and grill I won't be visiting anymore. and to reply to comments like "I am still trying to figure why anyone would WANT to carry a concealed weapon within the city limits of Lincoln." How about the women like my wife who work until 10:30pm at night, and then want to go for a jog after they get home? Take a look at the Lincoln Crime Maps at the top of the Journal Star. Plenty of assaults and burglaries in my neighborhood that aren't getting stopped by the local police. All the arguments against CCW are emotion based. All the arguments for CCW are logic based. Now you see why state AND local law-makers decided to let us carry concealed...its a step in the RIGHT direction towards safer streets, homes, and community. "

 pespective wrote on July 26, 2006 11:39 am:
" Most of us who are parents had our children immunized against polio when they were very young, even though the polio virus was almost completely irradicated decades ago. Polio, which was a very real concern to our grandparents and parents, was largely eliminated through the process of "herd immunity". Basically, if enough of the human herd is innoculated, the virus will not be able to travel far enough to reach a receptive host, and having run its course will eventually die out. Statistically, your loved one is more likely to become a victim of a violent offender, than a victim of polio, but we still innoculate and maintain our herd immunity. (Are we paranoid to innoculate against a non-existant virus?) Allowing reliable, trained, upstanding and intelligent people in our coummunity a defense against the violent members of society, may not directly cause an immediate downturn in the crime rate, but over time it increases our herd immunity against violent offenders. "

 A Greater Liberty? wrote on July 26, 2006 11:40 am:
" What I read in this article is the council dropped a proposal. By dropping the proposal it failed to decide if the concealed weapon law provision of allowing citizen (community choice) The executive branch (mayor) received recommendations from several authorities that a ban is needed. The legislative body (council) chose to drop discussion and ignore both public hearings and recommendation of the executive. Has the council blocked intent of the law to allow sovereign choice as a legal option to cities? Has choice been a liberty dropped by the council? Has debate from both sides been prevented so due process to enforce the provision of community choice is made in timely manner? The issue is not so much, "lets see what works" but what does the community want and did the council show good faith and due diligence to assure the law outlining community choice is adhered to? "

 Deborah wrote on July 26, 2006 11:41 am:
" Thank God, we do have sense in the MIdwest. Guns don't mix with anyone, especially when concealed. The old excuse for being able to bear arms was made when we were in a state of war. We need to move on, elevate our conscioiusness and get it together. "

 D.S.B. wrote on July 26, 2006 1:46 pm:
" As connie pointed out, who's to say we'll never again be in a 'state of war', Deborah, especially now. I'm with her, an armed populace is a measure of security against an outside, occupying force. History has a tendency to repeat itself! "

 bear, not conceal wrote on July 26, 2006 1:47 pm:
" Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Nowhere does it say you have the right to carry concealed weapons, only to bear them. Thank God there are some level headed individuals out there who will not allow weapons in their establishments. "

 Knowthestatefirst wrote on July 26, 2006 2:07 pm:
" Our gov isn't as dumb as most ppl think. People have to have a permit to buy a gun, trained and certified to carry a concealed weapon, and the gun must be registared. So most likely if something bad happens it will be because of someone not following the law. Guns will be prohibited in some government buildings not b/c of the city council but b/c of the state law which makes sense cuz yeah some of the people that run this town need to be open minded or retire. And as for the ppl making the decison to prohibit guns on there property is a good decision cuz there's ppl who just don't like guns. But why would Kitten need to prohibit guns in his bar? Is it b/c alchohol & guns don't mix? No, cuz alchohol doesn't mix with anything. Maybe Kitten should be asking himself why that customer is angry enough to were he is scared if the customer has a gun on them or not. Cuz Obviously if you are having that angry of a customer in a bar, that you need to ask yourself if they have a gun or not, something isn't right in the business. Yeah and the posts before some ppl are right. The crime rate here is sky rocket high. I think ppl should be able to use what they want for the comfort of their protection. When I hear of ppl getting raped by their neighbors or some guy that hasn't has a crime against him since 95 is now seen by women everywhere watching them. I wouldn't hesitate to have to go through all the stuff to get a gun with ppl around here like that. I'm not going to change my lifestyle and the things I like to do b/c we have so many criminals living here and I will do anything to make myself feel like I can protect myself from whomever with whatever, whenver, and wherever. "

 let go of the past wrote on July 26, 2006 2:30 pm:
" History has a tendency of repeating itself b/c ppl think that it worked then so lets do it now. It just keeps everyone on their toes. And "guns don't mix with anyone" are you serious? How do you think ppl got their food in the past. And today, my family never has to buy meat b/c we hunt so much. And some of it is less fatin than what you buy at the store that could fix another one of America's problems. Why are people so scared about ppl carring guns? If someone is going to use a gun to commit a crime I really don't think they care whether it is legal for them to take their gun with or not. Whether guns are banned or not I bet the crime rate with the use of guns stays the same. I doubt that many ppl will start carrying guns on them like ppl think. "

 Joel wrote on July 26, 2006 2:52 pm:
" bear, not conceal, please read the closer. The Bill of Rights governs the government, protects the citizens. "Congress shall make no law" and "the right of the people... shall not be infringed" are examples of limitations on what the government can legislate. If you look to Articles 9 and 10 you will see that any right not specifically delegated, is reserved for The People. Therefore, the Second Amendment stops our government from dictating how the arms are to be bourn. Openly, concealed...it is up to Us to decide. Another way to look at it is this: The nowhere does the Constitution mention frisbee golf, but that does not make frisbee golf unconstitutional or illegal. "

 ST wrote on July 26, 2006 3:08 pm:
" We all have a right to protect ourselves and family and friends, and the concealed weapon law is great! For those of you raising a tiff.... REMEMBER THIS: Pens don't misspell words...therefore GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! Sad, but true...just like matches don't cause arson...and as for the alcohol and guns theory; Jay made a GREAT point! It won’t be the law abiding gun owners that screw this up, it’ll be the ones who are already working on destroying our town…they are called criminals! "

 Ed wrote on July 26, 2006 3:55 pm:
" Joggers carrying concealed weapons? Wow! If I was that paranoid I would move to another town. Let's hope the concealed carrier doesn't become the victim as is frequently the case with unconcealed guns. "

 Ned wrote on July 26, 2006 5:09 pm:
" joggers have been attacked in Lincoln, so a jogger carrying protection is not necessarily paranoid. However, a Nebraska concealed weapons permit holder has NEVER attacked anyone in Lincoln. Maybe those afraid of what doesn't even yet exist are the ones exhibitting the paranoia. "

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